I morgen braker det løs med fagfolk fra hele europa.
http://atlantikwallplatform.eu/english/introduction/
Legger den under arkiv/dokumentasjon (dette er vel en slags dokumentasjonsgruppe?) da jeg skal prøve å få videreformidlet det meste av hva som foregår på seminaret.
Er selv med i en arbeidsgruppe
13.30 – 15.30 Parallel sessions led by:
Prof. dr. Inge Marszolek, University of Bremen (D)
Prof. ir. Eric Luiten, Technical University Delft (NL)
Jean-Louis Cohen, New York University (FRA)
With input from:
Philippe Bragard, Catholic University Leuven (B)
Adriaan Linters, Flemish Association for Industrial Archaeology (B)
Claus Kjeld Jensen, Atlantikwall museum/Museet for Varde By og Omegn (DK)
Gennaro Postiglione, Politecnico di Milan (I)
Erik Harberg, http://www.kystfort.com, (NO)
Janne Wilberg, National Fortification Heritage, Norwegian Defense Estates Agency
Skal prøve å komme med oppdateringer forløpende, men bilder etc. kommer vel ikke før til helgen. spørs hvor mye jeg får tid til..det er mye å ta tak i,
Dette er hva arbeidsgruppa skal jobbe med.. jobbe ut i fra.
If we consider the Atlantikwall to be an important structure, on what historic, aestetic, etc. grounds do we believe that? With other words: what are the characteristics of the wall and how do we (e)value en revalue them? And is that a general, international view, or just a local or, at the most, a national view? Should we seek for conservation of (parts of) the wall on national or international level (Unesco world heritage!)? Or should we simply look at its remains, just as they lay there, and try to deal with them? Thus incorporating them in or excluding them from our plans for spatial planning, economic development, building and landscaping?
Jeg kommer med blanke ark og skal prøve å få med meg hva andre tenker om dette tema. Tar med meg også litt av de synspunkter jeg har lest på forumet mht. riving/bevaring.
Erik H
AtlantikWallPlatform
Moderators: Stutzpunkt, KOS
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Stutzpunkt
- Moderator
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Blir spennende å høre utfallet her! 
Ble obs på denne sammenkomsten ved en tidligere anledning, jeg får heller satse på et event. nytt møte en annen gang...
Ble obs på denne sammenkomsten ved en tidligere anledning, jeg får heller satse på et event. nytt møte en annen gang...Mvh
Tormod
Tormod
Noter deg hva denne dama har å si, hun er blant de som flere her på forumet vil korsfeste..hun har bla.satt b/s/r(bevares/selges/rives) bak objektene på kulurminneprosjektet til forsvaret. Mange her som har mistet håret pga av detDen 54 år gamle kunsthistorikeren har lang erfaring med kulturminnevern fra så vel Byantikvaren i Oslo, Riksantikvaren og kommunalt kulturminnevern. Janne Wilberg har dessuten hatt ulike stillinger i Forsvarets bygningstjeneste, som stabssjef for Nasjonale festningsverk i Forvarsbygg samt leder av Forsvarets kulturminneprosjekt og Forsvarets permanente kulturminneforvaltning.
Paul S.
Hei dere. Da har jeg overlevd 2 dager seminar. 1 dag full tour i middelburg og en dag (idag) på sykkel rundt om i zeeland. litt sliten, men kan da slenge inn litt informasjon før jeg tar kvelden.
seminaret var en veldig fin opplevelse. jeg fikk møte mange nye personer (hei jos!) og tar med meg mange inntrykk og tanker.
Jeg forstår, og respekterer, frustrasjonen over kystfort/bunkere som dukker under for forskjellige grunner. Det er en vanskelig sak med mange forskjellige aspekter. litt for seint i natt til å reflektere om dette, men jeg hadde en fruktbar samtale med Janne og vi skal møtes i Oslo for å fortsette våre samtaler selv om vi ikke har plukket ut noen dato. De som ønsker å legge fram sine synspunkter kan gjøre dette ved å sende meg en PM.
Skal komme tilbake med mer info.. litt om mine tanker... bilder.. det vil også bli lastet opp video av f.esk Rudi Rolf sin presentasjon av AtlantikWall.
Jeg og Rudi var også på solotour rundt om i Middelburg. Å dra rundt med "gudfaderen" var en minneverdig opplevelse selv om bildene viser at jeg har "bakoversveis"
"EDIT".. måtte putte in nytt bilde.. har aldri sett meg med såå dårlig hårsveis.. må nesten legge inn litt "selvsensur"
Erik H
seminaret var en veldig fin opplevelse. jeg fikk møte mange nye personer (hei jos!) og tar med meg mange inntrykk og tanker.
Jeg forstår, og respekterer, frustrasjonen over kystfort/bunkere som dukker under for forskjellige grunner. Det er en vanskelig sak med mange forskjellige aspekter. litt for seint i natt til å reflektere om dette, men jeg hadde en fruktbar samtale med Janne og vi skal møtes i Oslo for å fortsette våre samtaler selv om vi ikke har plukket ut noen dato. De som ønsker å legge fram sine synspunkter kan gjøre dette ved å sende meg en PM.
Skal komme tilbake med mer info.. litt om mine tanker... bilder.. det vil også bli lastet opp video av f.esk Rudi Rolf sin presentasjon av AtlantikWall.
Jeg og Rudi var også på solotour rundt om i Middelburg. Å dra rundt med "gudfaderen" var en minneverdig opplevelse selv om bildene viser at jeg har "bakoversveis"
"EDIT".. måtte putte in nytt bilde.. har aldri sett meg med såå dårlig hårsveis.. må nesten legge inn litt "selvsensur"
Erik H
- Attachments
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- Rundt 70 personer var med på seminaret.
- 2010middelburg00164.jpg (120.16 KiB) Viewed 2181 times
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- 2010middelburg00256.jpg (118.4 KiB) Viewed 2180 times
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- 2010middelburg00158.jpg (96.08 KiB) Viewed 2180 times
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- Erik Hårberg ( Bad hair day) og rudi Rolf utenfor en ....R630?
- DSC_0294.jpg (139.18 KiB) Viewed 2159 times
Nico Rollmann har skrevet litt fra AtlantikWallPlatform. oversatt med Babelfish til Engelsk. (alle andre forsøk på å oversette ble elendige)
De som leser tysk http://www.unter-berlin.de/Atlantikwall ... 456.0.html
Nico driver "unter Berlin", en spennende nettside som man kan bruke noen minutter på.. timer.
På slutten skriver Nico noen forslag "A few proposals…".
Erik H
Atlantic embankment - conference in Holland
On 2 and 3 September 2010 took place in the Netherlands cities Amersfoort and Middelburg the conference Redefining the Atlantic embankment . About 90 historians, archaeologist, monument conservationist, museum teacher, sociologist, artists and other interested ones had appeared themselves for it. In addition, the majority of the participants originated from the Netherlands, it was present Belgians, Norweger, Italiener, Österreicher, Germans and representatives of other nations. The variety of the participants provided for an unusually broad spectrum at opinions, approaches and perspectives.
Monster from concrete
The Atlantic embankment is a fortress line, which during the Second World War of the Nazis as protection from an allied invasion at the coast of France, for which the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Norway and on the channel islands one built. It consisted primarily of shelters, fastened positions, obstacles and mine fields. Beside the purely military was above all the propagandistic meaning of the Atlantic embankment of large relevance: It should deter the allied ones and German victory confidence would flow. Its building accompanied with a plundering of the occupied countries, a driving of the local inhabitants, the employment out of forced laborers and wide nature destruction. Militarily the monster from concrete emerged again as Flopp: In June 1944 it could not stop the invasion of the allied ones. In the post-war period the plants were partly torn off or ignored. By the coastal erosion over the decades many plants sank in the sand and/or water or from the cliffs and/or dunes fell. The extent of these procedures was not systematically seized yet.
The Atlantic embankment which do?
In principle it did not concern on this conference to find to way for appropriate handling the Atlantic embankment that also the framework such to a meeting would have blown up. Instead one should speak outlining lining up tasks rather of the creation of a problem consciousness , one as well as one pointing first perspectives out . But first the military, architectural and propagandistic meaning of this building had to be naturally stated. Geert January Mellink, the main supervisor of this meeting, referred in its introduction to the fact that it had already given a conference before four years to the topic, whose focus lay however primarily in the historical and/or technical range. At this conference again the requirement of the organizers was formulated as follows:
With the passing OF of 65 years after the liberation incoming goods float questions pertaining ton the future significance OF this large scale complex as A heritage site within the historiography OF the Second World was and its place as A memorial and commemorative landscape. Incoming goods rehearse into the role the Atlantic embankment May play in spatial planning… and its role into generating recreational activities. and: This multi disciplinary seminar wants ends the object oriented fixation with the Atlantic embankment, focusing instead on integrating its military, spatial, historical and socio economic aspects.
Strongly simplified it concerned thus three fundamental questions: What means the Atlantic embankment nowadays? How could it become a component of the European intending culture? Which fundamental perspectives are there for handling the buildings of fortresses
The necessity such a conference results last end from the fact that the Atlantic embankment in the Netherlands was ignored and/or torn off during the post-war period over decades. Because it reminded the population of humiliating and of the terror of the LV rule. It referred at the same time indirectly also to the collaboration, which was to be observed with the building of this fortress line partly. In countries such as Denmark or Norway comparable behavior patterns let themselves by the way determine in this connection. Also nowadays some Dutchmen still regard the Atlantic embankment as a kind open wound. As a participant should formulate it: incoming goods of acres emergency ready…
Girl power at the Atlantic embankment
With the note that the Atlantic embankment needs more Girl power , it provided Geert January Mellink for a refreshing and unusual prelude of the conference. Unfortunately the topic is actual shelters a man domain with the appropriate, itself from it resulting in restrictions. Anyhow Girl power could be observed with the following papers plentifully :
After an introduction of Dr. Ellen van the Waerden spoke Professor Marieke Kuipers about the Atlantic embankment as Heritage OF Tension , followed of the German shelter expert Professor Inge Marszolek, which reported on the military and propagandistic function as well as the intending culture of the Atlantic embankment. An interesting presentation of rose Tzalmona could be spoken unfortunately only shortened by a representative, since the Referentin was prevented at short notice. Subsequently, the raised questions were deepened in three parallel running Workshops. For the author should prove the Workshop led from Gennaro Postiglione (Politecnico di Milan) as a highlight of the conference. Finally presented Steven van Schuppen the website www.Atlantikwallplatform.eu, which should be fully functional starting from end of the yearly as transeuropäisches forum.
Atlantic embankment godfather, Norwegian perspectives… and shelters
That locally Godfather OF the Atlantic embankment historians mentioned Rudi Rolf opened the seminar with an overview representation of the attachment line on the next day. Rolf's remarks were characterised by an extensive technical and military-historical knowledge. Its classification of the Atlantic embankment at the same time is in the normal European tradition of building of fortresses as well as the thesis that forced laborers were used with building of the attachment only marginally to regard according to opinion of the author as rather problematic. A concrete example of handling the Atlantic embankment pointed then Janne out Wilberg for Norway.
Following paper the Lenco van the Weels over the battle to the Schelde served the land front Vlissingen as prelude for the following Exkursion for the local shelters . With an inspection of the Polderhuis - military museum and a drink the conference was terminated there. For all participants there were numerous possibilities on the meeting in a relaxed and at the same time suggesting atmosphere of exchanging themselves and of attaching contacts.
Handling the Atlantic embankment a mine field
It is hardly possible to represent the problems of handling the Atlantic embankment here in detail and with reference to the individual Referate and/or Workshops, brought up for discussion to the conference. Instead the most important questions are to be specified following only briefly:
1) are politically and socially ripe the countries concerned enough for an open confrontation with the Atlantic embankment ?
2) as the local policy can become active, if the Atlantic embankment is regarded often still as topic, at which one the fingers burns itself can?
3) is larger the fascination outgoing from the concrete of the Atlantic embankment than the necessity to do something for his receipt? Is its substance how threatened?
4) is the Atlantic embankment like that kolossal that each attempt must fail to understand and bring up for discussion it as a whole in principle?
5) ability the buildings Atlantic embankment as part of the architectural modern trend to be regarded? And thus would an integration be into the cultural mainstream conceivable?
6) which is protect worth in view of the immense number of Atlantic embankment objects and which not?
7) as the local participants can be merged into a spreading concept for handling the Atlantic embankment? Is it possible in principle to arrange the memory as transeuropäisches project?
as the initiatives and interests of the different local participants (e.g. monument conservationist, ecologist, in which tourism working) can be coordinated with one another?
9) as the historical experiences of all humans concerned by the Atlantic embankment can find their entrance into the memory?
10) as commercial interests and memories can be agreed with one another?
11) How can the necessity for the coastal protection with the receipt of relevant plants be agreed?
12) Where the priorities are fundamental with buildings possibly worthy of protection: Receipt, reconstruction or over-forming?
13) How can plants be reconstructed secured and/or, without endangering the ecological systems?
14) How can public security at the often correctly not locked plants be ensured?
15) What happens, if the crimes of the national socialism of a daily should be forgotten during the enormous buildings of concrete of the Atlantic embankment to still stand?
In view of these numerous unresolved problems the question about appropriate handling the Atlantic embankment is perhaps void. Possibly this fortress line is completely simply a few numbers too large for it. At the same time it in addition, the possibility of a comprehensive, identity pin ends historiography of the Second World War offers several countries. Finally again and again to the fact it is referred that in the age of the European union the era of the national historiography is outdated long. In any case nearly all participants of the conference in one point seemed to be united: Something has tons of fuel element done!
A few proposals…
How could future strategies for handling the Atlantic embankment look? Where and how does one begin? Perhaps it would be helpful, if one specifies possible fundamental priorities first as minimum consent :
* A comprehensive stocktaking of the Atlantic embankment
* A classification of the preservation degree of the individual objects
* An estimate of the historical force of expression of individual objects and/or local systems
* A definition of a by the state financed worthy of protectionness of certain objects deriving from the above point. Further objects could be cared for by local, non-governmental initiatives.
* Establishment concerned of a competence centre consisting of experts of the countries. This center could advise e.g. local initiatives. At the same time it could the European networking of individual projects advance and with the educational switching of historical contents be concerned.
* Development of scientific standards, which could serve as binding criteria for by the state financed projects and as support for non-governmental projects.
The conference from German view
As German visitors was perhaps somewhat uncertain one at the beginning of the conference: Finally one belongs to the nation of the authors ! But this embarrassment dissolved in view of the open, friendly and humorous occurrence of the Dutch hosts quite fast. A little surprisingly was again the fact that a part of the advisers and/or participants was techniklastig something and showed up thereby here and there the long-known problem of the Enthistorisierung of LV shelters. Apart from it this conference can be regarded however as a full success. Although it is momentarily intended, a reinforcement of the conference in form of an anthology would be to be welcomed much. To the conclusion still another special thanks on Geert January Mellink and Nicolien tilt for its organization as well as the comprehensive and fürsorgliche support of the participants!
September 2010
Niko Rollmann
De som leser tysk http://www.unter-berlin.de/Atlantikwall ... 456.0.html
Nico driver "unter Berlin", en spennende nettside som man kan bruke noen minutter på.. timer.
På slutten skriver Nico noen forslag "A few proposals…".
Erik H
Atlantic embankment - conference in Holland
On 2 and 3 September 2010 took place in the Netherlands cities Amersfoort and Middelburg the conference Redefining the Atlantic embankment . About 90 historians, archaeologist, monument conservationist, museum teacher, sociologist, artists and other interested ones had appeared themselves for it. In addition, the majority of the participants originated from the Netherlands, it was present Belgians, Norweger, Italiener, Österreicher, Germans and representatives of other nations. The variety of the participants provided for an unusually broad spectrum at opinions, approaches and perspectives.
Monster from concrete
The Atlantic embankment is a fortress line, which during the Second World War of the Nazis as protection from an allied invasion at the coast of France, for which the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Norway and on the channel islands one built. It consisted primarily of shelters, fastened positions, obstacles and mine fields. Beside the purely military was above all the propagandistic meaning of the Atlantic embankment of large relevance: It should deter the allied ones and German victory confidence would flow. Its building accompanied with a plundering of the occupied countries, a driving of the local inhabitants, the employment out of forced laborers and wide nature destruction. Militarily the monster from concrete emerged again as Flopp: In June 1944 it could not stop the invasion of the allied ones. In the post-war period the plants were partly torn off or ignored. By the coastal erosion over the decades many plants sank in the sand and/or water or from the cliffs and/or dunes fell. The extent of these procedures was not systematically seized yet.
The Atlantic embankment which do?
In principle it did not concern on this conference to find to way for appropriate handling the Atlantic embankment that also the framework such to a meeting would have blown up. Instead one should speak outlining lining up tasks rather of the creation of a problem consciousness , one as well as one pointing first perspectives out . But first the military, architectural and propagandistic meaning of this building had to be naturally stated. Geert January Mellink, the main supervisor of this meeting, referred in its introduction to the fact that it had already given a conference before four years to the topic, whose focus lay however primarily in the historical and/or technical range. At this conference again the requirement of the organizers was formulated as follows:
With the passing OF of 65 years after the liberation incoming goods float questions pertaining ton the future significance OF this large scale complex as A heritage site within the historiography OF the Second World was and its place as A memorial and commemorative landscape. Incoming goods rehearse into the role the Atlantic embankment May play in spatial planning… and its role into generating recreational activities. and: This multi disciplinary seminar wants ends the object oriented fixation with the Atlantic embankment, focusing instead on integrating its military, spatial, historical and socio economic aspects.
Strongly simplified it concerned thus three fundamental questions: What means the Atlantic embankment nowadays? How could it become a component of the European intending culture? Which fundamental perspectives are there for handling the buildings of fortresses
The necessity such a conference results last end from the fact that the Atlantic embankment in the Netherlands was ignored and/or torn off during the post-war period over decades. Because it reminded the population of humiliating and of the terror of the LV rule. It referred at the same time indirectly also to the collaboration, which was to be observed with the building of this fortress line partly. In countries such as Denmark or Norway comparable behavior patterns let themselves by the way determine in this connection. Also nowadays some Dutchmen still regard the Atlantic embankment as a kind open wound. As a participant should formulate it: incoming goods of acres emergency ready…
Girl power at the Atlantic embankment
With the note that the Atlantic embankment needs more Girl power , it provided Geert January Mellink for a refreshing and unusual prelude of the conference. Unfortunately the topic is actual shelters a man domain with the appropriate, itself from it resulting in restrictions. Anyhow Girl power could be observed with the following papers plentifully :
After an introduction of Dr. Ellen van the Waerden spoke Professor Marieke Kuipers about the Atlantic embankment as Heritage OF Tension , followed of the German shelter expert Professor Inge Marszolek, which reported on the military and propagandistic function as well as the intending culture of the Atlantic embankment. An interesting presentation of rose Tzalmona could be spoken unfortunately only shortened by a representative, since the Referentin was prevented at short notice. Subsequently, the raised questions were deepened in three parallel running Workshops. For the author should prove the Workshop led from Gennaro Postiglione (Politecnico di Milan) as a highlight of the conference. Finally presented Steven van Schuppen the website www.Atlantikwallplatform.eu, which should be fully functional starting from end of the yearly as transeuropäisches forum.
Atlantic embankment godfather, Norwegian perspectives… and shelters
That locally Godfather OF the Atlantic embankment historians mentioned Rudi Rolf opened the seminar with an overview representation of the attachment line on the next day. Rolf's remarks were characterised by an extensive technical and military-historical knowledge. Its classification of the Atlantic embankment at the same time is in the normal European tradition of building of fortresses as well as the thesis that forced laborers were used with building of the attachment only marginally to regard according to opinion of the author as rather problematic. A concrete example of handling the Atlantic embankment pointed then Janne out Wilberg for Norway.
Following paper the Lenco van the Weels over the battle to the Schelde served the land front Vlissingen as prelude for the following Exkursion for the local shelters . With an inspection of the Polderhuis - military museum and a drink the conference was terminated there. For all participants there were numerous possibilities on the meeting in a relaxed and at the same time suggesting atmosphere of exchanging themselves and of attaching contacts.
Handling the Atlantic embankment a mine field
It is hardly possible to represent the problems of handling the Atlantic embankment here in detail and with reference to the individual Referate and/or Workshops, brought up for discussion to the conference. Instead the most important questions are to be specified following only briefly:
1) are politically and socially ripe the countries concerned enough for an open confrontation with the Atlantic embankment ?
2) as the local policy can become active, if the Atlantic embankment is regarded often still as topic, at which one the fingers burns itself can?
3) is larger the fascination outgoing from the concrete of the Atlantic embankment than the necessity to do something for his receipt? Is its substance how threatened?
4) is the Atlantic embankment like that kolossal that each attempt must fail to understand and bring up for discussion it as a whole in principle?
5) ability the buildings Atlantic embankment as part of the architectural modern trend to be regarded? And thus would an integration be into the cultural mainstream conceivable?
6) which is protect worth in view of the immense number of Atlantic embankment objects and which not?
7) as the local participants can be merged into a spreading concept for handling the Atlantic embankment? Is it possible in principle to arrange the memory as transeuropäisches project?
as the initiatives and interests of the different local participants (e.g. monument conservationist, ecologist, in which tourism working) can be coordinated with one another?9) as the historical experiences of all humans concerned by the Atlantic embankment can find their entrance into the memory?
10) as commercial interests and memories can be agreed with one another?
11) How can the necessity for the coastal protection with the receipt of relevant plants be agreed?
12) Where the priorities are fundamental with buildings possibly worthy of protection: Receipt, reconstruction or over-forming?
13) How can plants be reconstructed secured and/or, without endangering the ecological systems?
14) How can public security at the often correctly not locked plants be ensured?
15) What happens, if the crimes of the national socialism of a daily should be forgotten during the enormous buildings of concrete of the Atlantic embankment to still stand?
A hopeless venture?
In view of these numerous unresolved problems the question about appropriate handling the Atlantic embankment is perhaps void. Possibly this fortress line is completely simply a few numbers too large for it. At the same time it in addition, the possibility of a comprehensive, identity pin ends historiography of the Second World War offers several countries. Finally again and again to the fact it is referred that in the age of the European union the era of the national historiography is outdated long. In any case nearly all participants of the conference in one point seemed to be united: Something has tons of fuel element done!
A few proposals…
How could future strategies for handling the Atlantic embankment look? Where and how does one begin? Perhaps it would be helpful, if one specifies possible fundamental priorities first as minimum consent :
* A comprehensive stocktaking of the Atlantic embankment
* A classification of the preservation degree of the individual objects
* An estimate of the historical force of expression of individual objects and/or local systems
* A definition of a by the state financed worthy of protectionness of certain objects deriving from the above point. Further objects could be cared for by local, non-governmental initiatives.
* Establishment concerned of a competence centre consisting of experts of the countries. This center could advise e.g. local initiatives. At the same time it could the European networking of individual projects advance and with the educational switching of historical contents be concerned.
* Development of scientific standards, which could serve as binding criteria for by the state financed projects and as support for non-governmental projects.
The conference from German view
As German visitors was perhaps somewhat uncertain one at the beginning of the conference: Finally one belongs to the nation of the authors ! But this embarrassment dissolved in view of the open, friendly and humorous occurrence of the Dutch hosts quite fast. A little surprisingly was again the fact that a part of the advisers and/or participants was techniklastig something and showed up thereby here and there the long-known problem of the Enthistorisierung of LV shelters. Apart from it this conference can be regarded however as a full success. Although it is momentarily intended, a reinforcement of the conference in form of an anthology would be to be welcomed much. To the conclusion still another special thanks on Geert January Mellink and Nicolien tilt for its organization as well as the comprehensive and fürsorgliche support of the participants!
September 2010
Niko Rollmann
Med mitt lille fotokamera så filmet jeg Rudi Rolf sin presentasjon av "the atlantic wall", eller som han kaller den "the atlantic rampart".
Dette er del en av fire. De andre kommer fortløpende, men siden de er på rundt 120-150 mb så tar den litt tid.
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ3bKACIfRk
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KELEJlHw8e0
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy7lyMMYb8A
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFw6Wjy6qKw
Erik H
Dette er del en av fire. De andre kommer fortløpende, men siden de er på rundt 120-150 mb så tar den litt tid.
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ3bKACIfRk
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KELEJlHw8e0
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy7lyMMYb8A
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFw6Wjy6qKw
Erik H
Interessant. Venter i spenning på fortsettelsenErik H wrote:Med mitt lille fotokamera så filmet jeg Rudi Rolf sin presentasjon av "the atlantic wall", eller som han kaller den "the atlantic rampart".
Dette er del en av fire. De andre kommer fortløpende, men siden de er på rundt 120-150 mb så tar den litt tid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ3bKACIfRk
--
Tommy
Tommy
da er 1. 2 og 3 lagt inn. litt problemer med nr. 4, men det kommer etterhvert.
Erik H
Erik H